StevieB, I've gathered that the way we Americans view our flag isn't really done in other countries. It goes far beyond any political implications. In fact, I think to the vast majority of us, it is completely separate from politics. It's an emotional issue, and more of a matter of national pride.

I am aware the United States isn't viewed well right now because of what our so-called leadership has done to ruin it. But please know there's far more to our country than them. Bush may be the president, but he doesn't represent me.

In fact, I think to the vast majority of us, it is completely separate from politics. It's an emotional issue, and more of a matter of national pride.

I think this perfectly expresses the difficulty that I, at least, have in understanding this flag business. I suppose I think that national pride is a political feeling. I recognise that a national flag does not have to be a partisan political symbol, and that it can and clearly does transcend party politics in the USA. But surely to be proud of one's country must at least in part be pride in what it does in the world. In Britain the loss of empire, and then the moral angst about ever having had an empire, and all the truly disgraceful things we did in order to have and profit from that empire, have forever burst the bubble of "national pride". I think that's a good thing, and I suspect that the time will come when Americans may feel the same.

But please know there's far more to our country than them.

I never doubted it for a moment!

What a wonderful, inspirational discussion. I think everyone participating here has kept a genuine and sincere diplomacy that puts our non-elected leaders (now on both sides of the pond!), to great shame. If I have to take a 'side' then it is to agree with Steve that a flag must be inherently political; witness the response to it outside the US (and, increasingly the UK).

As a Welshman, I know only too well how people react to our flag outside of Wales. I think Celine has a point about it being a symbol of pride, and I can see very well that it can be, for the individual, a statement of pride apart from the normally-defined political dimension. But, it inevitably conjures up amongst those without the time or care to understand the country and language, images of petty nationalism, intolerance towards outsiders (especially the English), and does nothing to promote peace. See how oppressive the plethora of flags still flying from lamp posts in Northern Ireland are to a visitor, let alone the locals.

All that said, let's never fear open, honest, but respectful discussion of our respective positions, fears, and hopes. I, for one, have understood a lot more about my own approach to flags and their perception from this exchange; as everything in life, things are never cut and dried...

Good point, draconian57. It really is a different thing for us Americans. We pledge allegiance to our flag with our hands over our hearts. We wave it proudly at parades. It's just a part of who we are.

I can see how it might be viewed much differently for those outside of the country, though, since it comes from a different perspective. I appreciate the discussion and opinions. Thank you all for sharing.

Forgot to mention this -- draconian57 -- the national anthem is in the public domain, so the Boy Scouts don't own it. The retiring of the flag... I'm not completely familiar with it, but I think anyone can 'retire' a flag, but there are certain rules to follow to do so if they want to do it correctly.

My oldest brother was a boy scout and my sister was a girl scout. I have a lot of respect for those organizations. I'm glad it's still carrying on.

I probably meant what you said or just misunderstood what they said at the flag ceremony. Our hands over our hearts represent our love for being in this country and our love for what our flag represents as a whole. You can forget all about political stuff if you want to and just look at the flag and be happy.